mccain. >> on pakistan he was, right. this shouldn't be that big of a surprise that he is hawkish. this has been one of the central tensions, but sort of aspects of the obama presidency. >> i hear what you're saying. at the same time, you know, he came into office under the banner of no longer will there be black sites. we are closing gitmo. extraordinary rendition. these kind of practices put in place by george w. bush. that is going to be -- we're going to close that chapter in american history. what this reveals is that that chapter is far from being closed. it's still being written. >> we are still arguing based on the movie "zero dark thirty" whether or not enhanced interrogation, torture, helped us get osama bin laden, and you hear conflicting reports about whether or not that was true. if you ask the average person, does interrogation enhance interrogation, does torture work? you'll get ten different anz. we are as a country very much grappling with these questions and trying to sort of move our way through the maz